Bokashi (and other composting) questions...

Bokashi composting is an anaerobic process that converts food wastes into an amazing soil amendment.
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angelinab
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Very excited to have found this resource. I started a bokashi bucket a few months ago. I already had a 3 bin, hot compost system in the yard, and a worm bin in the basement. The draw of Bokashi was 2 fold - 1. I'd read it was a high source of nitrogen to help heat the pile, and 2. that it could process dairy and meat without attracting vermin. Unfortunately I found neither of those things to be true. I suspect it was user error but since it wasn't the most practical set up for my small kitchen, I bailed on the process entirely. But now that Ive found this forum, I figured I'd see what I might have done wrong, and whether or not it's worth trying to add it back in to my system. (I'll be remodeling my kitchen in the next year or two and plan to design it to make my composting systems super practical and efficient.) So -

The 5 gallon bucket took about 2 1/2 weeks to fill, then I let it sit for another 3 in a shady corner of my yard (dumping the lechate on a pile of rocks by a trumpet vine I'm taking out soon). I used a gamma lid and a plate in a plastic bag to press the air out. It was a good fit but not air tight. I was generous with the amount of bran I added. Roughly half a handful every time I added food. And I never opened the bucket more than once a day. There was a substantial amount of meat in it (left over from an uneaten charcuterie spread from a party my parents threw). Nothing that went in was rotten, and there was plenty of the white mold around the plate I used to press the air out. When the temp on my pile started to drop, I mixed the pickled scraps with a bunch of shredded paper and leaves then turned it into the pile. It smelled very intense - definitely a pickled smell but it was gag inducing when I mixed it in (worth noting I have a VERY SENSITIVE sense of smell. I often smell things others don't. So this may not be an indicator of anything other than my sensitivity). The next morning it was clear the rats had had an absolute rager. Tunnels dug all through out the pile. Almost all evidence of food scraps gone. And the pile was a tepid 80 degrees. With fall setting in and not much "green" coming from the yard (or so I thought, I didn't know at the time leaves were 50/50! That was such great info to learn in the video, thanks) I figured I had to resign myself to a cold pile till spring, and would just use the worm bin to process whatever food scraps it could bare.

Recently, on a lark, I figured I should try to do with the hot pile what I do with the worm bin - vitamix all the scraps before they go in. As a single human, living alone, who's not great at shopping/cooking for one, I end up with a lot of left overs. This went doubly so over the holidays when everyone was giving gifts of food - way too much for the worms. So right after Christmas, I vitamixed every bit of left overs - including meat and dairy - and poured it all in a 5 gallon bucket to haul outside, mixed it with rotting leaves from my gutters and the dried brown feathery fronds from the bald cypress in my yard then folded that into the cool pile. It shot up to 100 with in 15 minutes and was up to 125 the next morning. And the most miraculous part? No rats! When the temp dipped a week or so later, I did it again (albeit with fewer scraps). Same great result - quick heat, no rat activity. I am diligent about tending the pile, checking it daily to make sure it hasn't gone anaerobic. There's only been one instance where the center of the pile was getting stinky and I turned it immediately (most of the pile was the proper sweet earthy fresh smell). Though I have the 3 bin system, I've only moved one batch through (started in June, turned it into the 2nd bin and started fresh in Sept). The current pile has been substantially added to half a dozen times - and I basically rebuild it every time, mixing a big batch of browns/greens together, then lasagna-ing that into the center of the pile. My thinking was I'd work with this pile through winter and turn it into the 2nd bin come spring. I've ordered the microbiometer mentioned in one of the videos and am very excited to test it to see how I've done when the time comes, but as of now, the pile's teaming with life. SO many earthworms. Big FAT ones too! While Im new to hot composting (I've mostly worked with worms) my gut says I'm making good stuff. But I won't know till I test it, obviously. Oh and I've never gotten it past 130. 110-120 is about where it hangs out.

SO -- all this said -- any idea where I went wrong with the bokashi? Did it just need to sit longer? Not airtight enough? And with the hot compost/worm combo I've described, does it sound like i really NEED Bokashi as part of this system? Or might I be on the right track with my hot compost? (Maybe worth noting, I'm bringing chickens into the equation in the next month or 2.) I have a wonderful local nursery here in Nashville that makes great compost with all the necessary microbiology, and I'll be investing in that for my spring/summer garden, but I'm hoping what I'm composting now will be ready/full of life for next fall/winter. Any and all advice/thoughts will be greatly appreciated!
troy
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i'm looking forward to starting my bokashi composter, after i receive a batch of inoculated bran, which should come in early next week. i'm following andrew's lead by using a stacked bucket system and an airscape insert to ensure an air tight seal. fingers crossed...
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Michelle Dargatz
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Andrew, I also have a few questions about my bokashi. I have several buckets that have been sitting since Oct/Nov and they're completely frozen now, and so is my compost pile, but they don't seem to be fermenting properly. I had checked on them months after they'd been sealed and no smell or decomp was evident. I added more bran and sealed again (now frozen). Is there something else I shoudl be doing?
TomF
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angelinab wrote: Fri 07-Jan-2022, 10:29 Very excited to have found this resource. I started a bokashi bucket a few months ago. I already had a 3 bin, hot compost system in the yard, and a worm bin in the basement. The draw of Bokashi was 2 fold - 1. I'd read it was a high source of nitrogen to help heat the pile, and 2. that it could process dairy and meat without attracting vermin. Unfortunately I found neither of those things to be true. ...
I have been working on good hot compost recipe last summer. I do not have a lot of green waste generated from my yard but I do have a lot of brown from leaves gathered from parks and neighbours in the fall and wood chips I bring in for back yard forest pathways so I always store chips for compost too. I do have a chipper as I have a lot of mature coniferous trees so I chip the winter self pruned limbs and wind generated litter for compost too. So with the lack of greens I generate I get green waste from neighbours and dry it to store it to retain the N until ready to compost. I too have had issues with rats in a static pile from kitchen waste so went back to bokashi bins for the kitchen scraps for compost as they store easily until you have enough materials to do a hot compost.

One issue with the bokashi is it is quite wet and anaerobic so I only use one pail of bokashi to three pails of green. I don't wet the dried greens as much as the bokashi will add a lot of moisture once is it is all mixed well and browns mixed in too. (The bokashi will never look broken down coming out of the pail, just a shift in colour as Andrew mentioned, and go mushy) So you really have to mix it well and only make it a portion of greens so that it will not have big chunky areas of anaerobic conditions in your hot compost which you want aerobic.

When testing bokashi as High N, my first pile did not really heat up. it was 10% bokashi, 30% green, 60% brown. Next trial used bokashi as a portion of the green along with coffee grounds and greens and beer mash from local brew company as my high N. This one did work and I got three turns with temps hot enough long enough but because there was a lot if fine material, it was hard to maintain good aerobic conditions and I think it was a bit more of an anaerobic pile. That one I left for the worms to clean up.

My last compost of the fall was with a few pails of bokashi, all my last dried greens (that I wetted too much) and it was raining so my browns were wet too. This pile was way to wet which can cause anaerobic conditions & compaction and it did. I had a stinky pile and the rats too were getting at everything on the sides and they were hitting the bokashi chunks as everything else green was misc garden pruning etc. ( I did succeed on trapping them too) It did get hot for two turns but did not dry enough and then went cold so I will use that as brown for my next compost when I can get another batch of greens ready.

I would water down the leachate well too as it is very acidic and has a lot of anaerobic bacteria in it. Pure, it is a bit of an organic herbicide. I have been storing it and want to try it on my roof undiluted to see if that will hold back the moss growth.

Finally, I use an old 5 gallon bucket and a ice scraper that I filed to a sharp blade. I use that to chop up our kitchen scraps quickly before putting them in the pail and use a plate too on top. The fine material helps reduce the air inside and the ice scraper keeps the load off our vitamix. It also added some weather stripping foam to the underside of the pail to make a better seal to the lower pail as I had that putrid bokashi leachate smell escaping in our our mud room. I really like that Airscape Andrew offers too and may get one for the working bin and just cap them when filled with the lid to age.
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CoastRichard
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TomF wrote: Sat 08-Jan-2022, 12:56
angelinab wrote: Fri 07-Jan-2022, 10:29 Very excited to have found this resource. I started a bokashi bucket a few months ago. I already had a 3 bin, hot compost system in the yard, and a worm bin in the basement. The draw of Bokashi was 2 fold - 1. I'd read it was a high source of nitrogen to help heat the pile, and 2. that it could process dairy and meat without attracting vermin. Unfortunately I found neither of those things to be true. ...
thanks @TomF for sharing your experience. You mentioned you have a chipper for similar to what I am looking to handle? What model do you have - recommend it?
TomF
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@CoastRichard When I got this property in 2008, the back yard was forest with a small front yard grass so no need for a mower. I picked up a Eliet Maestro for all the fallen branches over the winter to shred and spread initially. It has been great at converting those fallen branches and also all the trimmings from the Vine maples, Rhododendron, Magnolia, apple tree etc. I don't put many hours on it annually so it has been great. I own a Fiskars push mover that has been plenty adequate for the lawn. Now for making compost, it is awesome in keeping brown materials available and nothing ever leaves my yard in the green bin the city gave us.Why send it all away for waste reduction just to get back poor quality industrial compost.
TomF
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angelinab wrote: Fri 07-Jan-2022, 10:29 .... I've ordered the microbiometer mentioned in one of the videos and am very excited to test it to see how I've done when the time comes, but as of now, the pile's teaming with life.
I have never tried the microbiometer but some notes of caution as the it reading the quality. I mention this because it cams up in the Soilfoodweb school forum recently. Dr Elaine Ingham said that the meter reads colour so that may limit its reading accuracy and also it does not differentiate between aerobic or anaerobic biomass or if you have a healthy does of the predators for good nutrient cycling. It may be better than nothing but to ensure that you truly have good compost, the microscope is best. Now I know that isn't for everyone and fresh, thermophilic compost can be quite good or quite bad even if it went through the proper heat cycles. It depends on if it went anaerobic or not and the ingredients used too as Andrew mentioned.

So on that note here is a study that looked at the quality of different compost used for compost extracts (CE)
"Extracts from ten diverse composts were tested for chemical properties, microbial community, and lettuce seedling germination. Of these, seven organic allowable CEs were tested for Pythium damping-off suppression when used as a cucumber seed drench. Finally three CEs were used in a greenhouse experiment to test their effects when applied to three different residues before soil incorporation."

This study did not mention at all what the soil was that they were used in so hard to know if it was fine NO till "soil" that has been worked for 7 years (like Dans beds) with % of organic matter above 3 minimum, up to 10 or more for awesome or "dirt" which may have compaction and low OM content between 1-3% where maintaining good microbial life is hard and weeds prefer to grow.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... +FINAL.pdf
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Andrew
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angelinab wrote: Fri 07-Jan-2022, 10:29 SO -- all this said -- any idea where I went wrong with the bokashi? Did it just need to sit longer? Not airtight enough? And with the hot compost/worm combo I've described, does it sound like i really NEED Bokashi as part of this system? Or might I be on the right track with my hot compost? (Maybe worth noting, I'm bringing chickens into the equation in the next month or 2.) I have a wonderful local nursery here in Nashville that makes great compost with all the necessary microbiology, and I'll be investing in that for my spring/summer garden, but I'm hoping what I'm composting now will be ready/full of life for next fall/winter. Any and all advice/thoughts will be greatly appreciated!
Sounds like you have found a system that works for you. I still recommend adding bokashi because it really enhances the quality and diversity of microbiology in your compost.

Some notes:

When rats are hungry and its post harvest and there is a shortage of food, your pile is extra attractive. I recommend a couple of things regarding adding bokashi:

- add during spring and summer months, early fall at the latest.
- 5 gallon pail (20L) per 1 cubic yard (800L) of hot compost.
- ensure even mixing of the bokashi food waste, don't let it clump up

We store our bokashi until spring and then it gets added to thermophilic piles.
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Andrew
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Michelle Dargatz wrote: Sat 08-Jan-2022, 11:34 Andrew, I also have a few questions about my bokashi. I have several buckets that have been sitting since Oct/Nov and they're completely frozen now, and so is my compost pile, but they don't seem to be fermenting properly. I had checked on them months after they'd been sealed and no smell or decomp was evident. I added more bran and sealed again (now frozen). Is there something else I shoudl be doing?
Hang on to them until it warms up and they are fully thawed, and your hot compost has become active again.

For context, to keep a pile hot during these very cold days you need at least a 20 yard pile. Generally speaking once its consistently 9 or 10 degrees (50F) out hot compost will stay hot and be easy to work with. I would start with 1 pail to 1 cubic yard of compost turn it in real good and keep turning it daily for a few days until it gets to warm or even hot to ensure good distribution.
Tessnoren
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Andrew wrote: Wed 12-Jan-2022, 09:09
angelinab wrote: Fri 07-Jan-2022, 10:29 SO -- all this said -- any idea where I went wrong with the bokashi? Did it just need to sit longer? Not airtight enough? And with the hot compost/worm combo I've described, does it sound like i really NEED Bokashi as part of this system? Or might I be on the right track with my hot compost? (Maybe worth noting, I'm bringing chickens into the equation in the next month or 2.) I have a wonderful local nursery here in Nashville that makes great compost with all the necessary microbiology, and I'll be investing in that for my spring/summer garden, but I'm hoping what I'm composting now will be ready/full of life for next fall/winter. Any and all advice/thoughts will be greatly appreciated!
Sounds like you have found a system that works for you. I still recommend adding bokashi because it really enhances the quality and diversity of microbiology in your compost.

Some notes:

When rats are hungry and its post harvest and there is a shortage of food, your pile is extra attractive. I recommend a couple of things regarding adding bokashi:

- add during spring and summer months, early fall at the latest.
- 5 gallon pail (20L) per 1 cubic yard (800L) of hot compost.
- ensure even mixing of the bokashi food waste, don't let it clump up

We store our bokashi until spring and then it gets added to thermophilic piles.

When you say one 5 gallon pail, are you meaning 5 gallons of finished Bokashi, or the 5 gallon pail that was full and then reduced down a bit?
(Hope that makes sense 🤪)
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